August 2020 – The LonePack Blog

LonePack Conversations- From battling Schizophrenia to uplifting communities- A timeless journey ft. Charlene Sunkel

People with lived experiences of mental health issues work hard towards managing their everyday lives, coping with symptoms, and more significantly, dealing with stigma. It’s inspiring to see how people use that experience, believe in themselves and work towards making a difference, which in turn empowers others around them.

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Valerie- Welcome to LonePack Conversations! I’m Valerie

Today, we have with us Charlene Sunkel, founder and CEO of the Global Mental Health Peer Network. She was diagnosed with Schizophrenia in 1991 and her journey since then has exposed her to various challenges experienced by people with mental disorders, within and outside of the mental health sector. This encouraged her to commit herself to fighting the cause for mental health and human rights. She has actively been involved in the field of mental health advocacy and awareness. She has also written and produced theatre plays and a short feature film on mental disorders to raise public awareness.

Welcome, Charlene

Charlene- Thank you very much for having me to talk about this important topic.

Valerie- Yes! So, in the introduction, I said that you were diagnosed with Schizophrenia in 1991 which was a time when this illness was probably not widely known or talked about. Your initial journey would have exposed you to several challenges around mental and physical health. What was it like to realize and combat these challenges?

Charlene- Yeah, I think in the 1990s, the level of stigma was extremely high, as you can imagine. I distinctly remember that when I received the diagnosis for Schizophrenia, I was not aware what that word meant. I never heard it before but in actual fact, even broadly, mental health issues or mental health conditions, I had absolutely no knowledge of it. The only thing I kind of knew at the time was that people had nervous breakdowns but I didn’t even quite know what that meant. So, what was difficult for me was that no one explained to be what my diagnosis meant.

I was just prescribed medication and nobody explained even why I was taking the medication. So, unfortunately, during those days, we didn’t have access, we didn’t have Google or the Internet connection or access to information online. So, I physically had to go to a library to read up on Schizophrenia so I could inform myself because I needed to understand what the link was between Schizophrenia and my experiences or symptoms. Even in a library, I had to do it secretly so that nobody sees I was researching on Schizophrenia because of the enormous shame.

So, at one point even a psychiatrist told me that I would never be able to work again, live on my own, make decisions, manage my own finances. It was a very daunting prognosis for me and I didn’t see much hope. So for me, if I look back, I think to combat stigma, I think it’s very important that people have access to information, both on an individual or personal level like in terms of your diagnosis, there should be a proper relationship with your treating psychiatrist or treating team and the stigma at that level needs to be broken down so that you are actively involved in your treatment, and at a community level—I think people need to come out more.

That is why I came out to speak about Schizophrenia, about my experiences, to break it down. I find that that actually helps people to see the human behind the label of Schizophrenia. People had really terrible reactions when I went into advocacy work because I did public awareness, I spoke about my diagnosis and experiences and I often got the same response where people said “But it doesn’t look like you have Schizophrenia”, “Well, it doesn’t sound like you have Schizophrenia”. So then it kind of just showed me the high level of stigma that people don’t accept you as human. So, I think speaking out about it, that was the first step.

Valerie- Yeah, so I liked that access to information was just that important because you needed to go and figure out what it was that was affecting you so that you could know how to deal with it. And the importance of talking about your personal experience so people see the human side to the illness and they look at you differently, right? Not just with stigma.

Charlene- Absolutely. I had really funny reactions. You know, you can sense people’s attitude kind of change towards you when they learn that you have a diagnosis. It’s almost like they’re scared of you and they’re kind of distancing themselves from you and I think it’s helpful when you share, especially when you actually achieve in life, while you have a diagnosis. I think that’s a very difficult thing for people to try and understand, they say “You have Schizophrenia, how can you achieve success in life?”. So, that in itself, being kind of a role model, that helps breaking down stigma.

Valerie- That’s great! So, we know that Schizophrenia affects about 20 million people worldwide. Despite this being a significant number, just as you said, there’s so much stigma associated with the mental illness and that often prevents many people from seeking help and there are challenges that one faces while trying to find effective treatment. Having gone through this personally, how do you view the situation?

Charlene- I think although I must say I do see a kind of reduction in stigma, since I was first diagnosed up to now, I think what I see, where the change is, has been in the media. In the past, the media would either not report on mental health conditions at all or they would sensationalize it. You see, so if someone with Schizophrenia for example, has been involved in a violent act or anything, they sensationalize it and that kind of creates further stigma. It’s the same with movies. You know, portraying Schizophrenia wrongly or as people being violent and aggressive and that they just can’t function properly, I think the media and movies can cause a lot of damage in terms of stigma. So, there are still a lot of myths and misinformation like people are dangerous.

Funnily enough, when people say that “People with Schizophrenia are dangerous and violent”, it’s funny enough that research shows that people are more prone to be victims of violence than to actually commit violence and that people would rather harm themselves than they would someone else. I think in terms of services also, I think we are progressing in terms of services and access to services now. The more people come out to talk about it, the more we create access. Also with people with less experience, to say that “I need more services and support structures than just medication and hospitalization”.

So, I think globally we still fought, many countries still fought to kind of have a more person-centered approach to mental health services where you look at the person holistically because stigma in itself is actually more disabling than the symptoms of mental illness and that creates problems in accessing healthcare and so, actually just to conclude on that question, I would say it’s up to us to speak out and to make people see that we are human and that we have the same health and mental health needs and that we can openly speak about it. I mean, if you look at cancer and HIV, higher stigma was around that years ago and now people are openly speaking about it and I often ask my question “Why is mental health conditions or Schizophrenia, specifically still such a difficult topic to discuss and why is there still so much stigma?”

Valerie- Right. I understand that because people look at it very differently. I think it’s only recently that people started taking mental health problems to be the real deal, you know? Up until then, you’d only look at a physical ailment and you would say “Oh, this is real”. I think perceptions are changing but they’re changing slowly. I did like that you said that you’re supposed to look at a person holistically. You look at them as a person and not relate it to the illness only.

Charlene- Absolutely. Yes, you must see the person because mental health impacts every aspect of your life. If I look at my experience, it had broken my relationships with friends and my family. So, you need something to kind of restore that relationship. I lost my job. There was no service that helped me to retain my job and kind of helped me with reasonable accommodation in the workplace so that I can continue working. Things like that.

Valerie- But that has changed now, right? I mean, people with mental illnesses still keep their jobs?

Charlene- Yes. I think it is starting to change. I think more in developed countries, there are a lot more advancements in terms of that. But I think in low and middle income countries, there’s still stigma attached even though I find, from experience in South Africa, that even though they say mental health conditions are considered a disability so companies should give you employment and opportunities of employment, but with mental health conditions, the stigma is still there. It is very difficult to prove that someone denied you a job opportunity because of your mental health condition because they are not going to come out and say it. There is still that stigma.

Valerie- So you’ve said that “If more people can believe in people with mental health conditions, they can achieve so much more”. While fighting for the causes we observe and believe in, the road to success certainly wouldn’t have been easy. You just talked about how it’s so difficult for people with mental health conditions to actually become successful because the people around are not supportive and would just search for chances to pull you down. What was it like to overcome this and create the Global Mental Health Peer Network, which is a platform that empowers voices of people with lived experiences of mental illness?

Charlene- Yeah, I think that this whole thing is built on the presumption of a person with Schizophrenia’s inability, or anyone with a mental health condition. There’s so much focus on what you can’t do and just the presumption that you cannot do certain things. The focus should not be so much on the inability. Yes, I do have things that I still can’t do or won’t be able to do as good as I want to but I have a lot of abilities. I think people should focus a lot on the person’s ability and to give that person equal opportunities to achieve and to succeed in whatever they want. I’m not talking about huge things. A person can achieve the smallest thing possible and I think that should be recognized as well and motivate someone to achieve even more. So, I think it’s making people realize their potential.

That’s what the Peer Network also wants to do, is to create mental health leadership. There are some people with mental health conditions, with unique expertise from their own lived experience and a lot of them are actually professionals in various aspects but just because of their mental illness, they could never really go very far and they got this leadership potential and can do so much. So, the Peer Network aims at developing leadership and looking at those with potential to become global leaders and empower them and so we strengthen the voices of people with lived experiences globally.

I think what’s also important is diversity in strengthening our voices. As you know, countries and even within countries, there’s huge variation and even a huge variation in the level of stigma, the level of specific needs and challenges, and I think those diverse voices, that I believe, can really change the World around mental health and give people that recognition of being a valuable human being.

Valerie- I think it’s wonderful that you talked about the fact that people need to be given equal opportunities to succeed and that you must encourage and validate even the smallest steps towards success, which is eventually what will help them become successful.

Charlene- Absolutely. For example, if I have suffered from some anxiety to go out and socialize, and I really work hard and I actually manage to go out and socialize, that achievement should be recognized as big as someone who got a top job! For that person, that achievement is as huge as that.

Valerie- Yeah. So what was the reaction like when it came to you starting the Global Mental Health Peer Network? On one hand, you were doing it to empower the voices of people with lived experiences but like we talked about, the entire stigma and people pulling you down and not being supportive, what was that aspect of it like?

Charlene- I think actually starting the Peer Network has been really rewarding. Through the people that we appointed on the executive committee who are now global leaders and especially, most of them are from middle income countries and just to see from them speaking out about their own experiences through the Peer Network, how it has changed the perception of people even in their local community. They are now becoming more involved at a local level. Whether it’s like influencing local policies around mental health or kind of getting the conversation going, locally through media, they just become role models. I think that in itself breaks down the stigma, specifically with them being at leadership positions within the Peer Network.

Valerie- Yeah. I think it’s wonderful that you just said that because people are willing to speak up about the fact that they’ve had lived experiences has actually shattered stigma in people around their community as well and I think that’s absolutely wonderful.

Charlene- Yes, definitely. I think recovery stories, as you call it, are kind of powerful. Extremely powerful.

Valerie- Yeah. So personally, you’ve talked about your friends being there for you and their ability to often identify a relapse emerging even when you don’t. What role would you say a support system plays in the lives of people battling mental health issues?

Charlene- I think a support system is absolutely critical. I know maybe a lot of the focus of treating mental health conditions is at a more clinical level, if I can put it that way. If you look at the typical example, you get diagnosed, you get put on medication, sometimes you go to hospital. The big problem often lies here, now you’re discharged from hospital, you go back to your community, you get absolutely no support. That in itself, you probably had a revolving door syndrome where someone relapses, that just can’t cope and then they’re back in the system and so goes on. So, that community based support system is, I would even say, is probably the most important part of treatment and recovery of a person with a mental health condition.

One thing that the Peer Network promotes a lot is peer-to-peer support. I do know that peer-to-peer support is mainly a thing in developed countries and has been for several years and I think it was lacking a bit in lower and middle income families. I know India is doing wonderful work in terms of peer-to-peer support. Even when you look at the research, there are a lot of benefits to peer-to-peer support. I mean there’s outcomes that show the person in much better mental health and general health. They are able to manage their condition better. They don’t feel isolated. They kind of relate to someone else who has also been through the same thing. There’s a reduction in hospitalization. Some even reduce dosages of medication. So the evidence is out there that peer-to-peer support in itself can serve a valuable role and it’s equally beneficial from services received from professionals.

That was also indicated through research. Unfortunately, we see a lot of peer support groups all over, that seems to be quite common and acceptable but we still need to amplify the benefits of peer-to-peer support where people with lived experiences seek peer support training, so that it can be acknowledged that peer-to-peer support works and is acknowledged as a fundamental discipline in the mental health system, and with in service delivery. In a lot of countries, you do have a multi-disciplinary team that is involved in the person’s treatment or recovery plan. For me, any access like that, peer-to-peer support must be part of that team.

Valerie- Alright. So peer-to-peer support is one of the most important things we’ve talked about, that it helps people not feel isolated but also, you talked about it in the frame of one person with a lived experience talking to somebody else with a lived experience, right?

Charlene- Correct, yes.

Valerie- Supposing you don’t have a lived experience but you if somebody is going through something, how do you be a support system to them?

Charlene- I think we show that kind of peer support, I know people call it “informal” and you have “formal” but informal is just to support someone else going through a difficult time and I think that is just as valuable. For me, if I look at support, the key to that is knowing someone is there for you. You don’t necessarily need their help but just the knowledge of having someone there, that is there for you when you need them, that is just such a key component to mental health security that you can have.

I think that human connection, for someone else that even if they don’t have a mental health condition, to support someone who does or go through difficult times in terms of mental health, just for that person to really make sure they are there, to listen non-judgmentally. You may not always understand but you acknowledge what the person is saying, acknowledge their feelings and their emotions and give them that secure space to speak out and know that you are there and that they can contact you. You can also play a very important role in facilitating access to services for that person.

Valerie- So talking about letting someone know that you are there for them, if they choose to speak up even if they don’t want to right now, I think that plays an important role especially now, when we are all locked up in our own homes and you might be going through something and you don’t really have somebody to talk to so I think it’s important, as you said, peer support and letting people know that you’re there for them even when they want to talk.

So, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. It’s been absolutely wonderful listening to you and learning so much from you about how you view a person who’s battling a mental illness and how you look at them holistically, you talk about equal opportunities. There’s so much we got to learn from you today. Thank you so much, Charlene.

Charlene- Thank you very much and all the best with your podcast.

Valerie- Thank you.

The Mother of Stories- A tête-à-tête with Janaki Sabesh

We are all story books; mere living documentations of memories and experiences spiral bound by the pages of Time. Welcome to this chapter of LonePack Conversations. My name is Suhas, and today we have with us Mrs. Janaki Sabesh, a well-known actor, a mesmerizing theatre artist, and a charming storyteller.

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Suhas: Welcome ma’am, how are you doing?

Janaki: I’m doing very well Suhas, thank you so much for making me a part of your LonePack Conversations.

Suhas: Just to start off ma’am, I want to understand how you’re doing, particularly in these times. So first of all, we’re super stoked to have you on with us here today. How have you been doing, how have you kept yourself busy in the times of this pandemic?

Janaki: So Suhas, I must confess it to, I think I’ve been more busy than ever before, and I think I should thank all the forces of the universe that have come together to make this possible. And why do I say that? I will explain because way back in —I mean, now it feels many, many months back— but it was just in March that I heard that children’s schools were going to shut down. You know, we were still not aware of the seriousness of this pandemic. And, you know, it has just started trickling in that schools are going to close early. And I said, all right, one day I said, why not I do something online? Because I had always shied away from going online because; and as an actor, as someone who seeks instant gratification, it’s very nice to be in the energy of an audience.

Janaki: You know, see the energy while you’re doing a story and feel the energy of the audience as they give you their love, their support, and their attention. So I teamed up with a small outfit called Little Trails, and I just asked them, should I go live? And they said this is a fantastic idea! And we put up a poster together at 10:30 in the morning and at 5:00 pm we will live on Instagram; and that was my starting point. And the way I um, what can I say, I was all overwhelmed with the kind of response that I got from people, not just children, but adults, mothers, fathers, who were suddenly, you know, sending me messages saying “ Please, please, please, can you continue doing this?” Because you know, we really didn’t know how to engage. And there were mothers who were still attending office. They said, “Are you going to continue doing this? Because then I can come half an hour early from the office”.

Janaki: I was like, Oh my God, I didn’t realize that here, I was, you know, trying to take my baby steps as it were to do something online. And since that day, it’s been really wonderful. It’s been a roller coaster ride because I have engaged not only with children but with a series of live performances on Instagram and where we would also follow it up with an activity from Little Trails, where Avanti is an artist. So she was able to connect the story. So if I did a story about a spider, she would do an activity about drawing a very funny spider. So we had all these children and we were engaging with children every day. So from there, we started doing workshops for children, which was, you know, those kinds of numbers, where about 700-800 people who are online from all over the world.

Suhas: Actually, that sounds very massive. It’s a massive scale.

Janaki: Yes, it is; and you know what we did Suhas, we also recorded the Instagram Live on our IGTV, that is on Little Trails’ IGTV. So all those who had missed watching it live went on the IGTV platform; and we were getting multiple views on IGTV as well. So it was, you know, I just, I don’t know, I don’t want to sound very philosophical here, but I’d like to share with all those who are listening that my icky guy, you know, my sense of my purpose of being every day is to put a smile out there; it’s to spread smiles. And I thought I was blessed because I was able to do that with my storytelling. And when children’s workshops happen, we create communities.

Janaki: We created a safe space where we even had chat shows with experts, everything on Instagram; and then slowly, I said, why do I need to do this only for children? I think I should include adults. Okay. So I started doing short stories for adults too. I also started a series that I normally curate face- to- face. I shifted it online, which is called Melody and Memory where you sing that particular song that’s always there, you know, playing in your mind, and then you tell me a short story about it.

Suhas: Yes. Essentially like connecting verses of music with a story!

Janaki: Absolutely. So if you have a story which is from an old-timer or a Hindi movie, but you will have a story connected, maybe that was the first time you heard your sister sing it, or an uncle singing it, you know, something like that. And you know, something, maybe he didn’t sing it well. So it could be a very funny memory. It could be a memory which has been inside you for a very long time. And I’ve had people coming to the show saying, Oh, I just want to listen in, but somebody else’s memory triggers off a memory in their youth for people to share. Then I started sharing stories for adults where I did mythology, I did a comedy, and another couple of weeks I’ll be doing something called taboo stories. So I think and then of course I kept learning by attending writing workshops, attending a workshop where I would just listen and gather a whole lot of knowledge about maybe certain aspects of storytelling, which I knew just little about. And I wanted to, you know, increase my knowledge then of course, courses, like on Udemy, on LinkedIn and also on Harappa Learning. So I’ve been doing a lot, you know what I think the moment your mind is active and is continuously busy, I think you just seem so happy; not to of course I have to mention that I’ve been also exercising. The gym has moved online. I don’t have any domestic help at home.

Suhas: Okay. So you’re busy doing work at home.

Janaki: Yes. But I have a very supportive family. So we all have, you know specific chores that we are very good.

Suhas: Okay so it’s very well divided and it’s not like a burden on one person.

Janaki: But at the same time, there’s no stress of saying “HEY you didn’t do this today”. It’s like today I have a podcast recording and if I had to do something else, somebody else would pitch in. I mean, we have a family of four with my mother-in-law at 91 who provides me with all the entertainment, because she comes up with her wise-cracks and, you know, talking about corona and things like that. I think I’m keeping myself busy.

Suhas: And the best part is the fact that you know even though you are busy, you don’t sound stressed out, or that you feel you HAVE to do it. Then it sounds like you would actually enjoy doing all the things that you are very happy doing. So that’s really great.

Janaki: Absolutely. So I was doing this Sunday morning conversations on Instagram, which was a live show with people, you know, from all walks of life like musicians, you know, we had, Ashish Vidyarthi and everybody; but it stopped at last Sunday because I said, “I need to take a break”. I didn’t want it to become stressful like “Oh who am I going to interview next Sunday?” If that becomes a point of stress, then I think I will not enjoy it. So I think that is very important. But the first thing is to recognize that.

Suhas: Definitely. I think the fact that you also are aware of that and that you acknowledge that point at which it becomes too much for you, and you decided to give it a halt over there. I think that’s, that’s a wonderful point to note. So I’m going to start off with essentially the first question of the episode. So you have juggled multiple roles through your life across so many fields, be it as a marketer, a mother, an actor, an artist, a thespian or as a storyteller. So how have each of these roles influenced your perspective of mental health over these years?

Janaki: Okay. So now the different professions that you have, the different roles, each one of them be it marketing, mother, actor, artist, theatre, storyteller; they all have different audiences. So for example, when I was marketing, I was marketing a product or service. So what happens is that I am the face of the organization, and when I go and travel and I’m trying to convince my client why he should go in for a product or why he should go in for us service. The conviction with which I tell them you know, my story, my company’s story, the vision of my organization is that is what will make or break the deal, right; or make, or break the trust as you know. So for me, that audience was very different and see, there’s a lot of responsibility and there’s a lot of how do I say it, you needed to be on call 24/7! It didn’t matter; because of being in the cinema industry, I was in the media and entertainment industry, selling a product like digital cinema. And, you know, before that I was doing that, I was handling a set of studios. So I was selling the service now in the cinema industry. You don’t have, especially in India, something like non-working hours; it’s like when you have to, you need to be there.

Suhas: Got it. Got it. So when you have to chip in to do your work, regardless of when it is, you have to be up to it.

Janaki: Absolutely. So you know it was stressful because see, a film releases on Friday, there would be a lot of issues, tension, but you have to be available. And it did take a, you know, it was stressful at times, but you know, the whole thing was to not take it too personally and take it to your heart, but I can easily say now, now that I no longer in the organization and no longer in a corporate avatar. But when I was going through, I won’t lie to you Suhas, it was stressful. You know sometimes you just feel like, why are you even here? But then what really charges you up is when you complete and when you, when you are convinced at what, the decision that you’ve taken and the fact that you’ve not lied to your customer, you’ve told them what was possible.

Janaki: And the trust that you give back to them saying that I will take care of your issue. So with that game, a lot of power, you know? You become so amazed at the quality of convincing somebody because you’re truthful. And you also trust your organization, your colleagues; if there was an issue to have solved the issue. So that is one audience, but then when you go to say, a theatre production, that influence that I got from corporate is that to be very convinced about what you’re seeing. So that is what came out of my corporate avatar. But in theater, in acting I always wanted you know, how do I say, I was always scared; I never wanted the director to retake a scene because I had made a mistake.

Suhas: You wanted to do your role in whatever the part with the best of its perfection in the first take itself!

Janaki: Yeah. So, I understand that itself is a little bit of stress on yourself. Sometimes inadvertently it will go wrong for whatever reason; we can’t by-heart our lines. We know our lines and we will say it in our own way, but sometimes some directors are very fixed on what they want. Because some directors say, “I’m giving you the gist of the scene. Now you say it”. Okay, of course you can’t use your own dialogues. There are dialogues written.

And so I had these, a team of assistant directors, always who used to help me out, they’ll all come and say “Ma’am ma’am, ipdi pannunga ma’am; if you do it this way, and I’m sure you can do it” you know? So sometimes the Tamizh will be a little hard, you know, it’s difficult, but somehow I managed. So from acting, I understood that, you know, you can’t stress yourself if, if there is a mistake. So be it, there’s always another take. It’s okay. It’s not the end of the world,

Suhas: But you know, on the flip side of that particular freedom and luxury isn’t particularly available in theatre because it’s a one-time run; you have to get it right.

Janaki: Exactly. So theater, again, this whole thing about, you know, becoming nervous. My mouth went dry and I was continuously having water. And it’s like, you know, you’re constantly thinking of the lines. At night you are not able to sleep because those lines keep coming back to you. But I think it comes with practice. The more you do so, you will find your own rhythm in your own dialogues, in the way you say those lines. Like for me, it is very visual. I really do plot points. You know the main important points; say I have a monologue and I have two pages of a monologue or three pages, I will know each paragraph that begins. I said, “Okay! I did A, then I went to B. Then I went to the next”, it is a sequence, right? So that way I always remember, you know, the scripts, your audience, doesn’t for you to bounce back, even if you’ve made a mistake, it’s up to you. And that that comes with experience.

Suhas: Of course, I definitely, I understand that. So just to form a gist of what we’ve spoken so far. You know, you mentioned about how, you know, even though you’ve had the elements of difficulty in your corporate tenure and in your acting I think could I say that you the fact that you have had some amount of job satisfaction and the fact that you delivered, really helped you mitigate that levels of stress that you had for the period right?

Janaki: See, and I was always there for my team also; my team of 40-45, you know colleagues. I was always there and it’s, it’s very happy. I’m so happy when I get messages even to this day saying, “Yeah, you were the best”. And they don’t have to because I’m no longer in the system. Some of them are also no longer in the system, but it is very, very um, you know, it gives you a lot of happiness and, you know, there’s a smile on my face and I read that; because you didn’t do it for that. Somebody will write to you 20 years later that you were the best or you help. I kept them together. I motivated them, you know, there was always, there was nothing that we can solve together. So that was something and the same applies, you know, when you go into different fields and as a storyteller, remember that you know, your audience becomes a participative audience.

Suhas: Okay. So you sort of have, like a feedback loop in that, the way you proceed also depends on how the audience interacts with you.

Janaki: Yeah. If they don’t like my story, which I will know in the first seven minutes, I’ll have to do something very dramatic.

Suhas: To catch their attention, yes.

Janaki: So that you innovate on the go. So, so each one has its beautiful moments Suhas.

Suhas: Okay. I definitely understand that. So now ma’am, just to sort of narrow down for the rest of the podcast, generations differ by several parameters across so many different filters, like as an artist you’re working closely and interacted with younger artists as well right? Is there a difference in how youngsters view mental health now? Compared to a back in the days a few decades ago, when you were a teenager and you started off.

Janaki: Totally; because when I was growing up, I don’t think mental health was even discussed at home unless there was somebody, you know, distant cousin or somebody who was going through an issue. And it was always looked at as an issue. Today’s generation, my God! Everybody speaks about it. I think to be, you know I think to borrow from what my daughter says, she says, “Ma you have a very different take on all this because you’re constantly surrounded by youngsters”. I work with a very young team in terms of storytelling, in terms of theater, you know, with Crea Shakti, with whom I do a lot of theater, I’m surrounded by youngsters who don’t have an issue talking about, “I had a bad day” and then it’s not a full stop. I had a bad day dot, dot dot. So others will pitch in.

Janaki: “So what happened? Explain to me”; and it’s not immediately “Let’s go to the doctor”. NO its like “We will try; we will help you with our circle”. And then that’s where I think our safe space becomes paramount. I think the youngsters of today have found a safe space. It could be their own friend circle, or maybe a bigger circle or people like you, you know, LonePack, where people are able to connect, and say that, “Hey, I’m going through this. Do you think you can help me? Or can you at least put me on to somebody?” Therapy and things like that, I mean, everybody discusses, everything threadbare now, which for somebody who’s just reading it, scrolling on Instagram or Facebook or any other forms of social media might say, “Oh my God, this one is feeling that I’ve been feeling the same, but I’ve, you know, restricted myself, I think I need to reach out”.

Suhas: Okay. So sometimes, you know, when you read about people’s stories on social media and you sort of relate to what they are feeling and you reflect upon those with yourself as well.

Janaki: Absolutely.

Suhas: Okay. Okay. I think there’s sort of a usual saying that hey there’s a generation gap here and there’s a stark difference here, maybe, you know, you’re one of the examples where again, because of your interactions and the way you’ve been engaging yourself, sort of tells us that your environment has played a major role in you know, sort of mending that gap, that supposed to be there for the generation.

Janaki: I’ll tell you one more thing. I have a 91 year old mother-in-law staying with us and she has never, you know, I think it’s also the family, the way you’ve been brought up in not just in my parent’s home, but with my mother-in-law’s as well. They don’t they don’t shy away from talking about these things; these are not taboo words. These are not taboo topics

Suhas: Understood, on the outset. Do you feel like that mental health is still a taboo now? Even though you’ve spoken a lot about it?

Janaki: No. No, I don’t think so. No, no. I’ll tell you what I think. I, I think the way it has been portrayed and the way people are sharing, you know, everybody has their own take on social media and all, but it’s how much you consume and for what purpose.

Suhas: That totally makes sense. So I think, you know, now that you’ve spoken a little bit about your own personal ideations about this a little bit on the professional side, right? Moving on, cinema, theater, and art have played a big role in influencing the perceptions and thoughts society has about various issues and various topics in it. So do you believe that these communities are doing justice to portray mental health issues on the screen or on stage? If yes, how is it? And if not, how do you think that needs to change?

Janaki: So I, I bring out two movies which have impacted me in the sense, and I think in fact, impacted society, one is of course is Taare Zameen Par which brought out dyslexia, and which was, I think the starting point for many parents. I have a friend who, you know, a friend’s friend who said that, “My God, now I can, you know, say to the open, it’s no longer a taboo. It’s no longer something that’s to shy away”. Sometimes you need to share. And for all, you know, it might just take you at, it was not just dyslexia. It was all parenting issues. It’s all about this, you know, being in the rat race, making sure that your child is forever coming first. This class and that class, you’re not, there are so many times I’ve told parents of very young ones. “Just let them be; allow them to stare into the walls because they need to dream. That’s when you know everything in, all the butterflies in their heads will set it down”n and then they’ll be energized and re-energized just because they have one hour or two hours of time. We don’t put them in class, not even storytelling, just make them, they should come and tell you that we need to go somewhere. So that was one. And secondly, a film which I really, really am very fond of is Dear Zindagi, which normalized therapy. Shah Rukh Khan says a very beautiful dialogue there, he says that “As a child we’ve never been allowed to express our emotions. If we are angry, we are said, no, no, no, you can’t be angry. No, no, no. Wipe your tears. And when, you want to express love? What then?”

Janaki: How can you express? You know what I mean? It was all of course in the context of Alia, but the protagonist. But I have seen that even. It’s still my go to a film whenever I am seeing, like, you know, I need to learn more about why people say certain things and you know it’s so judgmental. We can be so ruthless sometimes, you know, somebody said, we don’t realize what that person is saying, and we view it out of context. You know? So for me, I think I’m, I’m sure that I’m many others, like in Tamizh Aarohanam talks about Bipolar Disorder. So these are things that I hadn’t even heard of; like Bipolar Disorder, so it makes you want to research.

Suhas: Okay so you’re telling that there have been a few movies which have been very impactful in what they aim to do.

Janaki: But at the same time, there are clichés. Now at the moment, there is somebody who, who doesn’t speak the same way as you do or language, or he’s a little different. You can’t just say that he’s been put into a mental asylum. Yeah. This is unfortunately too huge, you know, poles apart

Suhas: Even though, even though it’s sort of exaggerated for the dramatics, it sort of puts out a wrong message at times.

Janaki: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you do it because you want to show, and it does like, you know, in all advertisements where they have to depict this out. So it is stereotyping a lot of imagery and we need to get out of it. People need to do a lot of research. I would urge people who are into these kinds of topics to speak to people. And that’s when I know that even in theater, Kirukku Nagaram for which they did a lot of research with LonePack and I remember watching it and then it blew me away. And I was like, “My God”, is this how, as a society, we react to people with mental illness?

Suhas: I think I remember, I know the whole reaction to that play which was really good.

Janaki: Just to complete, that needs to be done to bring about something as strong as theatre or cinema, because we consume it! We are such great consumers of this art form that it could really be the way forward to bringing about a lot of key issues to light.

Suhas: Definitely because I totally agree with you; I’ve watched movies across so many languages and, you know, with the advent of various OTT platforms this has also been bridged. I indulge in a bit of theater myself, and I have a lot of friends in the theater circle. But I think I totally agree with you on what you said, about the stereotypes Haven’t noticed that day I think that [inaudible] doing good and Vicky says, and you know the mainstream audiences so with respect to the movies how do you think the scales are tipping impact on people with respect to mental health?

Janaki: But it started already. So now it shouldn’t be difficult for us because there’ve been already films made in this genre and it just showed us, we need to be very, the topic has to be very sensitively handled that’s all, sensitivity with a lot of research. It’s not just enough to make people cry buckets, you know, at the end of it, if people understand and say, Oh, and they want to say, Oh, okay, this is a different point of view. And I’ve been like, if I disliked a neighbour, I am seeing it only from my point of view, right? What if we suddenly change from her point of view, I might be missing something; and we never do that. Right? When we get into a fight, it’s always me against that person.

Suhas: Okay. So if I may, you know simplify, I think you’re talking about empathy and about how one should be mindful of how you are to people, why you think people might be reacting in a certain way. So empathy is very important as a characteristic for people to nurture.

Janaki: Absolutely.

Suhas: Okay. That sounds really great to hear that from you. So I think I’ll move on to one of our final questions. So, very recently a lot of talk has been happening with respect to mental health, especially in the world of cinema. So regardless of the language, cinema continues to be very fast-paced, dynamic, and being the public eye is also so difficult and not very easy. The paparazzi are always around; so could you shed some light on the relationships and emotions shared across artists that grow in the industry? How do they interact with each other? Are they always very stressed? It’s something that’s never seen to be public, the lives of people in these industries, how they are as people on the outside.

Janaki: If one sees my body of work, I’ve done about 30 films, I think since 1994, so 27 years 30 films, that’s all, I’ve been very choosy because that’s what I was, I was handling a corporate life also, you know? And so I think I’ve been very lucky and having said that I’ve been very, very shy from the media as such. People write about me, if there is a theater or something, or some collaboration or something like that. But I will tell you something that my mentor told me a long time back when I had, I think my first film had released or second film I think, Jeans. And he said “Janaki remember that even after all your films, you should still be able to sit in an auto and go home”.

Janaki: So subconsciously, I think that stayed with me and I’ve done exactly that because I can still take an auto, we’ll have a very nice conversation with the automan. I’ve seen it with some there, and then we have this conversation and he finally said, “Oh my God, Ghilli, Vijay-mother” and all that. So I enjoyed that because it gives you a kick. But at the same time, I, I do understand that this whole thing about [the paparazzi], you know, I remember one time when I was in Pondicherry a lot of people who said, “Hey, inga parunga Vijay amma” I was petrified and went and ran into a shop and hid myself because I didn’t know how to react because I don’t know. I can’t even explain that. But when I was in Sri Lanka many, many years ago, when my first film had released and a whole lot of school children came and recognized me, I was okay with it, maybe because it was the first thing.

Janaki: So even as we evolve and the ways we react to situations also change. But for my other colleagues and all I hardly meet them. It’s always on the set and on the set, I’m very happy with my book. So it’s only during the short end that we all during lunchtime are direct. And then we go back to you know, other rooms or wherever via setting, but I I make it a point to speak and, you know, I’m always in search of my learning, you know, now I, again, I don’t want to stress myself saying, “Oh I didn’t learn anything today.” Not like that. It’s just nice to hear somebody else’s journey and you don’t orchestrate these conversations. It happens on the go!

Suhas: It’s not like you sit and talk about it, it’s just something that happens when you talk in the evening with friends, or just when you’re talking with anyone, you learn about new things and then you think about it and then you probably extract some type of learning.

Janaki: It’ll come; it’ll pop up one day when you’re doing something else.

Suhas: Okay. Okay. That sounds really interesting and I’m glad, you know you’ve also evolved so much with respect to how people react in such situations. And it’s great to see that you’re comfortable taking the roads and sometimes, you know, who knows the fact that somebody spoke to you might even make their day they’d be happy and the same auto-wala would probably go and be like “Hey I spoke to Vijay amma” your buddies that would probably give them a really good sense of, you know, content for that particular day.

Janaki: Let me tell you a joke that happened. My daughter came in and the auto guy dropped her off. And he asked her “So neenga indha building la irkeengala?” [ So do you stay in this building?] ; And she said, “Yeah”. And she was giving him the change, and he saidUngalakku theriyuma? Indha building la dhaan Vijay oda amma, Ghilli”, [Do you know? In this building Vijay’s mother from Ghilli stays]. She came and said, “Ma you’re very famous.” I didn’t realize that it was very cute and you just felt nice about it like that, you know? So these things happen and you just take it in straight.

Suhas: I definitely, I think I totally understand how that feels. So this is sort of to slide into the final question wrap this up. We’ve spoken up so many things, both personal and professional, and I think one of the most pressing questions and topics in this field of mental health, professional help. So along with professional help, we require the support of friends and family when you’re going through a difficult time. So what you can, each of us individually should keep in mind when we’re interacting with somebody else?

Janaki: Okay. So I think the first thing which is something that I really, really want to even speak about and emphasize, even for myself, is to be kind to people. We have no clue what they are going through. We all wear masks and we are so amazing at wearing these masks; unless and until you know that person inside-out, you’ll see through. Even like when I’m speaking to my daughter and suppose she’s not here, she’s not in town. She hears. And she says, “Ma you, okay?” So it’s, it’s as simple as that, you know? And because she asked me if I’m okay, and because she’s my daughter, and it’s a very safe conversation that you can have with your daughter, because she’s not going to judge, you, up saying something that disturbed you, something that you will not happy, but you can’t always rely only on family members, because they are also going through their own journeys.

Janaki: So you need that one person, or you need one person, who’s your friend, or you need that safety network of friends or people, who are actually qualified to ask you some questions. It’s not like one of these “Joram iruka? Evlo irundhudhu?” [Do you have fever? How much is it?] It’s not that it’s like, do you want to talk sometimes just a simple line, some simple question, like this can completely change somebody’s life. Do you want to talk? And that person breaks down or says, yes, I want to talk. You’re not to pick up that call, to pick up the phone and talk to somebody, it takes a lot of what do I say? Lots of ups, something from inside that pushes you, which forces you to pick up because otherwise it’s easy. We can always say, no, no, I don’t want to call it today.

Janaki: You’re only delaying that call, but the more you delay that call, the more horrible you will be feeling. So I think A, be kind and don’t judge, they’re going through something and please, we can never say, “Oh, I understand what you’re going through”. You will never be able to understand that is what they’re going through. So I always, I have seen so many TED talks, you know, ‘The 10 ways of having a conversation’, all these are mindfulness, all these are going, because I tried to, I want to become a better version of myself. I keep striving because I don’t want to hurt people with statements. I’m very, very mindful of what I speak now, because earlier we’ve all made mistakes. We’re all human. Yes. And I think everyone has a story. Everyone has a backstory, as they say, you know, you like Steve Jobs says you can only connect the dots, you know, backwards, right? Yeah. So when you, when you, when you connect those dots, only you realize, Oh my God, if I had not said that that day, maybe I would have never come to this phone today, but then you’re not God, it’s okay.

Suhas: Sometimes when we make mistakes. It’s okay to acknowledge that you made it and then try to react on how to go about it before even realizing that you made one and react about it.

Janaki: Absolutely. And I think if you’re being mindful, it’s very easy for me to say it is, it is not easy. It comes with a lot of experience, practice, and maturity. You know, there is something in music and Hindi, they say the ‘tehra’, or ‘nidhanam.’ That is even when you’re telling a story, you can’t go *wadadadadada*. “Once Upon a time” [slowly], you need everyone to soak in your story. So if you want people to even listen to you, you need to first understand that it’s okay to share, but you need to create that safe space, that safe network that, that one person or two people—it could be in the family, it could be your best friend. It could be maybe an ex-colleague who’s, you know, turned out to be your best friend now. So these are things—in these strange times, the pandemic has taught me so much saying that, you can push your limits and, go there, get out of your comfort zone. But the day you are not feeling comfortable, just keep quiet.

Suhas: I think, you know, that’s very important to know that. I think this answer was, can I say that this answer really sums up how you are and your philosophy about things in life itself?

Janaki: Yes, because there are some days I do nothing and it is okay. I used to stress about not having done anything, but I don’t longer stress. It’s okay! It’s okay to feel bad for 24 hours. It’s okay to not feel good some days. But you have to snap out of it. And if you’re unable to snap out of it, go and go ask for some help. It’s okay to not be okay, and then ask somebody for help.

Suhas: I think that really sums up you know, the whole idea about mental health and the fact that conversations are important. I think I’ll be happy with the way this whole conversation in the last half hour has turned out to be really good. You know just to sort of loop in something you said at the beginning, you felt very shy and weren’t very sure on how to interact on the online space, but I’ve been following you for very long and let me tell you ma’am, you’re very enthusiastic to watch and it instills the energy back in us. I think that’s a wonderful thing to be doing.

Suhas: Just before I close off, I’d like to bring something that you’ve spoken about right. You’ve spoken a lot about the importance of a safe space, a non-judgmental safe space where people can talk; that can be your friends or family or anybody else who you know you’re comfortable sharing your feelings with. We at LonePack have also understood the importance of this, and keeping this in mind, we’ve designed an online virtual space where people can do the same thing. It’s called LonePack Buddy, and the whole essence of LonePack Buddy is to provide a non-judgmental safe space, which is also anonymous, where people can talk to other volunteers from our end. People who volunteer with us are also trained with us in a course where they know how to talk to people actively and invest themselves emotionally and ensure that they can help people on a temporary basis. Of course, this is not a replacement for therapy. Just like you said, it’s good to have someone to have someone to talk to and you know, some days with the conversation you learn a lot about yourself when you talk to somebody, especially when someone is there to listen to you. So I think that’s the whole essence of LonePack Buddy. We just wanted to let you know so that you or somebody else who probably would want to talk can use this facility.

Janaki: I think it’s a wonderful initiative because I think like in the corporate world, when you say buddy, it’s like when somebody joins the company and you know, that person needs somebody to help get started. He needs help to understand the company better, the processes better. So I think a buddy like this, a LonePack buddy will be so good for people to understand because I, they will be non-judgmental, you know, and that is what I think we need in these times, especially in these times. Thank you for even launching that, and I think that’s a wonderful initiative and I know LonePack is doing some amazing work and I know you’re doing it very quietly. And I know that I think we need to inform a whole lot of people, especially in these times when people just need the need to just pick up the call and talk. It’ll be, I don’t know, we can’t put ourselves in their shoes.

Suhas: Definitely, I agree. This has been a very heartening conversation to have with you. Thank you so much for firstly agreeing to do this by taking time off your day and engaging with us. We hope that we can share a lot from you and collaborate further and I wish you an amazing day ahead and thank you so much for this.

Janaki: Thank you so much Suhas, and thank you LonePack, continue to do whatever you’re doing. And I will always be there and whatever way I can contribute for LonePack.

Suhas: Alright, thank you so much. I’d also leave a message to all the listeners that we’ve had listening to this wonderful conversation. Thank you and have a good day.

Janaki: Thank you!

Mental Health in the Workplace

With the quarantine in full effect, Some of us have been working from our beds – the line between home and work completely blurred. Some others have a little too much family time and work has been their escape. And, for yet many more the pandemic has cost them their jobs and uncertainty looms like a guillotine over their lives. The undeniable fact remains that this lock-down is a little crazy and completely chaotic, and working from home has only added fuel to the fire.

The conversation surrounding mental health has never been more important, and while more and more people are talking about it, one space that it is rarely discussed is work. The internal separation between our ‘professional’ work-selves and our home-selves makes the topic of mental health issues taboo at the workplace. The need for this dialogue is also scarcely driven by employees. Changing this corporate culture must be driven by every worker. Spreading awareness and building support for demanding these benefits is a vital starting point. Encouraging more open conversations about mental health between colleagues and peers can lead to a more robust employee-driven implementation of policies. Finally, focusing on continuous improvement and adapting to change is key to support a workforce that deals with rapidly changing ways of working. Regardless of the myriad occupations that each of us hold, we can focus on these common spokes to turn the wheel of change.

While some companies have started recognizing this and provide benefits catering towards employee mental-health such as free therapy and paid time-off, this is far from being the norm. Corporations exploit this diffidence to enhance their profit margins. However, businesses may actually profit from providing mental health services as part of their benefits. The World Health Organisation estimates that the cost in lost productivity due to depression and anxiety disorders is nearly US$ 1 Trillion.

The pandemic and resulting work-from-home paradigm has brought forth a new challenge to the mental well-being of the digital workforce. While traditionally, most companies viewed working from home with suspicion, the current state of the world has brought enlightening new facts to dispel this doubt. Microsoft was among the first companies to enforce work-from-home for its employees. It has also been proactive in studying the results of this ‘experiment’. Some of the highlights (or sobering facts, to be accurate) from this study are,

Employees were spending 10% more time in meetings when working remotely.
Instant Messaging usually slows down by 25% during lunchtime. However, when working from home, it dipped by a mere 10%.
Instant Messaging usage soared by 52% during 6pm and midnight.

The World Economic Forum recommends these 10 tips to boost your mental health when working from home. Here are some of the key points.

Set up a dedicated workspace, which should be as free from distractions as possible.
Develop a schedule, which includes phases of focused work as well as breaks.
Try to establish simple routines which don’t require any self-control, such as a coffee break or starting your working day with an easy routine task.
Set up dedicated times for work and leisure – and stick to these times.
If possible, work in a different room than the one you spend your leisure time in. Particularly avoid working in your bedroom as it may remind you of work related issues, preventing detachment when you go to sleep.
Engage in absorbing activities, which capture your full attention after work. Good examples include exercise, cooking, mindfulness meditation, or focused playing with your children or pets.

Due to the advances of technology and to the delight of managers, the feeling that an employee is available at any time when working from home has become the norm. Mental health has taken a back seat. Zoom burnout and loneliness (especially in the case of the younger workforce) are frequent complaints. In a 2010 experiment conducted by Nick Bloom, a British Economics professor at Stanford University, for a Chinese travel agency Ctrip, one half of a 250 employee-group, were told to work from home while the other half worked in the office. To the surprise of the agency, the productivity of the Home group went up by 13% and the company could save nearly $2000 annually per employee from this arrangement. But the experiment also measured happiness and ‘feelings of loneliness’ were the main reason for employee dissatisfaction.

A majority of people spend one third of their adult life at work. Even if the social value of dispelling stigma surrounding mental health at the workplace isn’t enough, there is also a clear economic motive. The same study that estimated the cost of lost productivity due to employee mental health issues also provides hope. As a positive incentive for companies to take up the cause of mental health in the workplace, the research estimates that for every US$ 1 put into scaled up treatment for common mental disorders, there is a return of US$ 4 in improved health and productivity. Here are the key takeaways from the steps recommended by the World Economic Forum to build a mentally healthy workplace,

Be aware of the specific needs and circumstances of the work environment of your employees and tailor policies best suited for your company.
Seek inspiration from motivational leaders and employees who have taken action.
Be aware of other companies who have taken action to put mental health policies in place.
Successful implementation of mental health policies and delivery of benefits relies on collaboration. Take practical steps to put this into place.
Figure out where to go if you or your employees need professional help for their mental health concerns.

Most of these measures can be implemented whether the employees are at office or working from home. The most important step is to ‘Start taking action NOW.’ Employees have found innovative ways to stay connected with colleagues, who for many, double as best friends and form an important part of their social network. It is time for businesses to open a more humane side of operations and recognize that whether their employees are working from home or at the office, their mental health is as much of a tangible factor in their success as any profit margin.