In our country, safety has always been a major public health concern. While it’s disheartening to see cases of abuse almost constantly flashed on our television screens, stigma around the issue prevents us from talking about it or discussing the personal trauma that one battles.

---

Also follow us on:

Apple Podcasts

SoundCloud

---

Valerie- Welcome to LonePack Conversations. I’m Valerie. 

Today, we have Viji Ganesh, Personal Safety Coach and Educator.  She volunteers and works as a freelancer promoting awareness and prevention education about Child Sexual Abuse and imparting sexuality education. She is here talk to us about the impact that child sexual abuse has on one’s mental health and how we can help contribute to a safe space for children.

Welcome, Viji. 

Viji- Thank you, Valerie. It’s such an appropriate time to do this because just yesterday, Child Safety Week ended. November 14th being Children’s Day in India, November 19th being International Day of Abuse Prevention and November 20th being International Children’s Day. We had a week-long session on creating awareness about this particular topic. It’s so apt that we’re doing this today. Thank you for this opportunity.

 Valerie- Thank you. It’s amazing that you spent the entire last week and actually, most of what you do is to promote a safe space for children and create awareness about child sexual abuse. 

Viji- That’s right. I’m mostly into primary prevention, which is to get people to talk about it more and help child children and empower them to get into protective behaviours- to protect themselves from abuse and also to not become abusive. 

Valerie- So, when we look at statistics in India, it shows that around 110 children are sexually abused every single day. You can see around us that a lot of people may not even be aware of the fact that such acts are committed, or we choose not to talk about them because we find ourselves in uncomfortable positions. When you look at the people affected by it, it is so difficult for them to talk about it because of so much stigma that’s associated with it, or sometimes it happens at such a young age that they don’t even understand what’s happening to them. What are your views on this?

Viji- Child sexual abuse is rather disturbing, abhorrent and most often an unimaginable crime for most of us but the unfortunate reality is that it exists and does keep happening. Many people say that only of late, the incidences have increased but I wouldn’t agree with that because it is only now that the reporting has increased. It has always been happening but thanks to social media, the reporting has increased now. As you said, there is a lot of stigma around this, most of us are in denial. Most of us are also uncomfortable and inhibited from talking about this. That is where primary prevention comes in. The response to child sexual abuse should be handled with a view to increase awareness rather than to be in denial. It may seem very daunting and we can get overwhelmed by it but let me assure you, the fears, concerns and inhibitions are all very relevant and cannot be wished away. We have to deal with it so that we can empower our children effectively, address this issue to prevent it and help survivors heal. 

You are very right when you say there is so much stigma around this, mostly because when a survivor speaks up, they are most often not believed or are shamed. They are blamed and asked questions about what they were wearing, till what time they were out, and other typical questions. So most often, they prefer to keep quiet and suffer in silence. But we need to speak up about this. Not only the affected or the survivors, those who are not affected should also have the same amount of empathy towards it and only then can this issue be addressed in its totality. It starts with the community. It takes a village to raise a child and it takes a community to address this issue. All of us have a role and responsibility in addressing this issue, is what I feel.

Valerie- Very true. When you spoke about the amount of stigma that’s associated with it that so many children prefer to suffer in silence as opposed to being questioned and shamed, in relation to this I wanted to ask you that people who face child sexual abuse often battle psychiatric disorders mostly because of stigma, suffering in silence and the after-effects of trauma. This may extend and reflect largely on their adult lives too, at times. Could you elaborate on this for us? 

Viji- Yeah, sure. Most often, ninety percent of child sexual abuse cases are by people known to the child. Stranger danger is no longer a real danger. Not all strangers are dangerous and not all known people are safe. In most CSA cases, it is a known person that commits this crime. That is the first difficulty that a child faces- not being able to accept that it has happened by someone they trust, like and have to live with in the same house, sometimes. That’s where it all starts. The confusion and emotional conflict that they have with the person. As a child, they suffer a lot. It can lead to a fall in academics, eating disorders, bed-wetting, sexualized behavior or becoming introverted. It could manifest in many ways but these should not be looked at in isolation, they have to be seen together. 

But as an adult, it can manifest in varied complex ways. There could be physical symptoms which disappear after a while which could be treated and medically addressed but there are a lot of emotional aspects that an adult survivor could go through- anxiety, depression, PTSD and emotional distress. Some of them could even suffer from eating disorders. They could even have externalizing behaviours such as substance abuse, alcoholism and in some cases, can also become abusive themselves, but not all abusers have a history of being abused so it has to be seen in isolation. The fact that ninety percent of these cases are of abuse by trusted adults leads them to trust issues, issues in interpersonal relationships and may also become revictimized in several relationships. They may be in a self-blame mode thinking that they did something which is why this happened to them. The system doesn’t respond to tell them that it’s not their fault, that it was never their fault. We always tell parents that to encourage disclosure, first listen and listen actively. In fact, we tell the parents that if they suspect that some child is on the threshold of disclosure, the first words that you should say is “It’s not your fault”. Once we start from there, the healing journey becomes easier. That’s how it manifests. The effect of CSA could be very complex and long lasting. 

I would like to quote a particular incident that happened in my workshop- a 63 year old grandmother had brought her granddaughter for my workshop in Hyderabad, around 8 years ago. After the session, I was quite overwhelmed listening to her tell me that she wished she had these kinds of workshops and education when she was growing up because she was also abused as a child and at 63 years old, this was the first time she was talking about it. That kind of jolted me, to realise that somebody could live uncompromisingly as an adult, with this in the background. One of the ways they deal with it is to push it to the back-burner, but you never know when it will erupt. Broadly, these are the effects that it can have on a functional adult. Sometimes, there could be a compromise on adult functionalities- they could appear to be normal but you don’t know what they are going through within. There is so much more to it than what I can tell you during this brief podcast.

Valerie- Right, but thank you for spreading light on this for us. You are someone who is deeply involved in the cause of child sexual abuse awareness and prevention, like you said, you host plenty workshops to spread awareness about this. How important would you say reaching out is for those affected by it? When you come across someone affected by child sexual abuse, what is your approach and interaction like? 

Viji- In nature, everything is resilient with an attitude to bear with all to heal and spring back to life. The first thing a survivor should have is the bravery to ask for help. That’s the bravest thing that one can do and it opens up a floodgate of options for them to start their healing journey. Which is why we keep reminding them that it’s not their fault and that they should ask for help. You do not have to define yourself by what happened when you were a child, when things were out of your control. It’s just like if you meet with an accident on the road, if you break your knee, you get surgery. You do not define yourself by the accident or what your knee has undergone. If you have the same perspective about abuse as well, it is easier to heal but even as I say that, I am aware that the two are not comparable situations but what’s important is that we do not define ourselves by what happened to us as we were a child, when things were out of our control. It is very difficult but it is not impossible to start our healing journey towards closure. 

This is where our society comes in to work on the stigma attached to it. In newspaper headlines, when they report incidents of abuse, it is always the victim that’s highlighted and not the abuser. We need to change that narrative. The blame needs to shift from the victim to the abuser. That in itself gives acceptance and can help start the path to healing. There are many ways to deal with the trauma from sexual abuse, there is no one solution that would fit all. Some people could spring back to action soon, some people could put it on the back-burner and live a normal life, some people could do things positively and help heal others. There are various ways to heal and that journey starts with the bravery to ask for help. That would be my message to all survivors- ask for help.

Valerie- I think it’s beautiful that you said don’t define yourself by what happened. You don’t centre your life around one incident. I thought that was beautiful.

Viji- Thank you.

Valerie- How do you approach people when they come to you and show bravery to talk about what they have been through? How do you approach and interact with them?

Viji- Basically, it all comes down to listening. Abuse is all about power inequity. It’s never about a sexual act but about somebody more powerful doing something that you have no control over. That is the stage they are in which is why even a grown adult gets into patterns of revictimization and self-blame, and always look for validation in others. This is one of the manifestations. We try to tell them that now you are in a safe position, it is over and done with. We may even take them back to that memory or place or time and relive it at their level of comfort and get over the lack of power that they felt at that time, and feel more powerful about their current empowering situations. They say that even now, it is a child that’s trapped in an adult’s mind even now. When they think about the abuse, they think of themselves as the child which was abused then and not as an adult now. That is why we have to start the journey from there and overcome their limitations. Also create safe spaces now, surround yourself with positivity, positive people and safe people.

Valerie- Okay. Talking about the importance of safe spaces, could you elaborate on some personal safety lessons that one can learn at schools?

Viji- Schools are a great place for transformation. It is where every child spends two-thirds of their waitful hours. Be it disclosures or learning about safety measures, it all happens majorly in schools. Their resources for disclosure are peers and teachers. We advocate personal safety education for children right from kindergarten till the end of their school years. It’s a holistic life skill approach that we follow, that gives them the education that empowers them to take part in their own protection, with knowledge, assertive skills, and information. The basic problem with most children when it comes to child sexual abuse is the lack of vocabulary, we do not name our body parts correctly. To children, a hand, a forehead and a penis are all body parts when they are just two or three years old. It is the adult mind which thinks of these parts as reproductive organs to use for sexualized behaviours. To a child, a vagina or a penis is just another part like a hand or a leg. Our education proceeds by giving them the correct names of their body parts, teaching them their functionality and slowly, as they grow into adolescence, discuss sexuality education. 

We teach them assertive skills by telling them that they are unique and special and have full body autonomy and they have every right to say “no” to any unwanted touch. It is not “who” that matters but the action. It could be anybody, it doesn’t matter but what matters is what they do, whether you like it and whether you want it. The commonly used terms of “bad” and “good” touch are not recommended, instead we should teach children about “safe” and “unsafe” touches. I would like to quote from one of my workshops- a small boy asked me “What if I feel good about a bad touch?”. Some of these touches could make them feel good even though they are intentionally wrong because these are all places filled with nerve centres and a lot of blood flow so it could make them feel good and pleasurable but they do not have the perception to know that the act itself is wrong so they could just stop with feeling that it makes them feel good. 

We want to teach children that they have absolute body autonomy and the full right to say “no” to any touch that they do not like. Any form of physical affection should always be at the behest of the child and not the calling of an adult. We cannot make our children responsible for an adult’s emotion. We educate the parents to accept a “no” every now and then so that the children know that it all starts from home and that the significant people in their lives will accept it when they say “no”. Once you give them the confidence that they can say “no” and that it will be accepted in the right spirit, they will do it outside as well. Whereas if you tell them that they have to respect adults and listen to whatever they say, they will remember that and even if it is a wrong touch, they may think about it and stay silent. 

We also teach them to build a robust support system of adults and communities by choosing their trusted adults, possibly parents, family and teachers, and also how to handle emotions like fear and anger, which are normally seen as negative emotions but we tell them that fear and anger are very positive emotions, which are like red flags. If you fear something, it means that you need to do something about it. It is an action point. If you feel angry, you need to act on that anger in the right way. We teach them conflict resolution and how to handle their emotions. Before telling them how to handle their emotions, we tell them to recognize and talk about their feelings. We do not know how to put a label on our emotions. Only when we know what we’re feeling will we be able to address and handle it. We also help build empathy because while every care is taken to prevent abuse from happening to them, we also need to ensure that they do not become abusive and that’s where empathy comes into play. The most important thing we teach them is that despite all this, if it still happens, do not blame yourself because it was never your fault. This is our personal safety education in a nutshell.

Valerie- Thank you for talking to us about this, it was very informative. Especially the part where you said that you’re supposed to understand your emotions and channel it correctly. Also not to blame yourself for anything that happens, if it does.

Viji- That’s the most important, yes.

Valerie- Also, when we talk about the current situation in the World, there is so much darkness when it comes to sexual abuse. There is so much talk about it and it’s because it keeps happening. I wanted to ask you- How do you see things getting brighter in the future? How do we become part of the solution? 

Viji- That’s a very good question. We have to be a part of the solution and not stay in the problem forever. There are many knee-jerk reactions whenever a case is reported- there is media bashing and a lot of blogs being written but after that, nothing happens. Do we do anything to make sure that it doesn’t happen again? We are all in denial that it is happening to someone else, it may not happen to me. Prevention and healing require an equal amount of sensitivity, care, positivity, optimism and being practical. 

When it comes to care, you teach personal safety education to children, start a conversation about it, make note of the vulnerable points in your community and the possibility of abuse happening. Adults need to sit and talk about it and not live in denial. It is very difficult and daunting but we need to work positively and believe that things can be changed. A lot of people are creating awareness now. Earlier men never used to talk about it but now there are a lot of men rooting for this cause and talking about it. A lot of survivors are now bold enough to open up and talk about their journey, and not define themselves by it. 

Practically, we have to translate prevention and healing into an actionable blueprint. That’s where practical tips on personal safety education in all schools and resources for survivors need to happen. So it is possible and to be a part of the solution, the first thing we can do is to start a conversation around it. It can be a dinner table conversation at home or even a conversation with the children while travelling in the car. If the parents need more information, there are plenty of resources available on the internet. It’s not rocket science and you don’t need a professional to come and talk about it but a little training and research certainly helps to not teach the children a wrong lesson because un-learning is very difficult here. It’s better to always give the right message by reading up, doing your own research and there are professionals working in this area. 

That’s how you can start a conversation around it and address the issue, and be a part of the solution. In fact, a lot of people took part in this week-long child safety week and I had interviewed four or five people from various walks of life who are rooting for this cause. The first thing is to get people to talk about it and normalize it just like a fire safety drill or a road safety drill. That is how it has to be taught to a child, like another life skill. 

Valerie- Thank you so much for talking to us about this. I hope that through this conversation that we’ve had, we could help raise more awareness on child sexual abuse. I really appreciate everything that you said to us about the importance of starting conversations and normalizing them for children so that it’s not looked at as such a taboo thing to talk about or something that’s associated with shame. Also, more importantly, not to live in denial of the fact that it will not happen to us but in turn to do some research, to start reading up on it and to handle situations with empathy, sensitivity and optimism, and empower people. There’s so much that we got to learn from you today and I’m really grateful that you took out the time to talk to us about this. Thank you so much, Viji.

Viji- My pleasure. Awareness is the key to all this and it’s the only sustainable solution to end this social malady, I would think. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Valerie. My life’s motive is that if I can save one child from abuse, I will have lived my life well.

Valerie- Yeah. Thank you so much.

You can learn more about Viji Ganesh’s work on YouTube

While the word categorizes writers as people who seek loneliness and silence, it fails to see them as they truly are- a diverse group of individuals, who have mastery over the most powerful human sense, imagination.

 

---

Also follow us on:

Apple Podcasts

SoundCloud

---

Pooja- Welcome to LonePack Conversations! I’m Pooja, your host. Today we have with us Krishna Trilok, master storyteller and best-selling author of the biography of our beloved composer, Mr. A.R. Rahman.  

Welcome to LonePack Conversations, Krishna. Having you here with us is an absolute pleasure. 

Krishna- Hello, it’s a pleasure to be here. Hello, everyone.

Pooja- Hi, so how’s it going during the quarantine?

Krishna- It’s going great. I mean, we need to be positive so I’m going to say that it’s going great. Yes, could things be better? Do I miss going out, seeing people doing all the things we took for granted? Yes, but I think this is a fantastic time to introspect and to value and appreciate what we have and look forward to when things go back and be very grateful when they do.

 

Pooja- That’s so nice. I wish I was as positive as you. So, let’s start off with a little perspective. What prompted you to write ‘Sharikrida’, your first book? I mean, how did a student of commerce become so interested in mythology?

 

Krishna- So, I actually grew up in a household of storytellers. I don’t mean that in the sense that coming from a family of storytellers, generally, but even the people who worked in the house, so on and so forth, they were great storytellers. My grandmother was a big influence, she used to tell me stories when I was a child. You know, stories from Indian mythology and Indian folk plays and I loved those. She used to go to the theatres and watch movies and I was too young to go and she would come back and tell me the stories. So, a lot of classic movies, actually, much before I actually saw them, I heard them as stories, so that was an informative experience. Then I actually had a cook in the house. She used to come and cook for us and she was a fantastic storyteller, in the sense that she would actually make it a series. She would tell a little bit of the story every day, so I guess she would prepare and then come and tell everyday. You would be waiting to hear what happened next. So, she would tell me a little bit of the story for fifteen minutes everyday and I would be waiting to hear what happened next. 

 

So, all of that, I think really got me into storytelling and Indian mythology in general and I was also a big fan of all your ‘Amarchitrakatha’ and the books on Greek mythology and so on and so forth. So, I always knew, I think when I was around thirteen, I decided that I wanted to tell stories. That’s what I wanted to do with my life and at that age, the only avenue available to explore this interest was pen and paper. We did not really have the camera technology and all of that, as it is available today. So, I just decided that I would go and start writing. I got a notebook from a nearby store and I started writing and that’s how it happened. I studied business on the side and all of that but I was always writing whenever I got the time and thankfully by the time I finished college, my undergrad, I managed to find an agent and then a publisher who would be interested in putting out my work. 

 

It was a long process, it did take time, it did not happen the way I thought it would happen. Like when you’re thirteen, you start writing, you think everything is going to go your way and everything is going to be perfect but it doesn’t happen and part of life is figuring out how to deal with things not going your way. When something doesn’t go your way, you learn to say “Okay now, this hasn’t happened, what do I do with the situation?” and it was a great learning experience as well. That’s how it started and I’m still on the journey, and it’s been fantastic. Everyday has been fantastic and I’m grateful for it.

 

Pooja- Okay, so can you share with us one of your mythological stories that had you so interested? A small type of story, maybe?  

 

Krishna- I think one of my favorite stories that I used to hear when I was a kid was not actually a mythological story but it was those folk tale stories, you know, of the crow and the snake and the old lady and the crow and then the fox. I think the one that I’m most fond of is the one where there’s a hungry fox and it sees the grapes and it tries to get them but then they’re too high up and then finally the fox just says “You know what? Those grapes are probably sour” and goes away. I mean, contrast that against the story of the crow, that is very thirsty and finds a jar of water but the water is too low and it goes on putting stones until the water level is higher and it can finally drink it. I think those two stories just taught me more about life than anything ever since. You can either say that a situation is not working out for you, blame the situation and walk away, or you can see the situation and see what you can do to make it better and make it work for you. So, those were two stories that really really shaped my looking at the World. 

Of course, I didn’t learn the lessons until I was much older but now I try to work and apply it in life in every way because I think you have to make mistakes. Unless you make mistakes, you don’t learn. So, definitely, I have walked away from a lot of situations which I could’ve handled differently and changed and so on and so forth but I’ve learnt over time. Including things like this quarantine, you know? I mean, we can either say that this is the worst time in our lives and we can’t wait for things to get better and we’re going to sit and crib about what governments are doing, what everybody is doing and how awful everything is or we can choose to take it as a gift and say that this is time that we have been given. 

Literally, we have been given time to not do anything and just enjoy ourselves, watch movies and all of that, if you have that privilege, which I do. I’m not going to lie about that. I know there are a lot of people who are struggling right now. They are struggling with lack of employment, they are struggling with uncertainty, they are struggling with a lot of issues but I think if you are a person who doesn’t need to worry about where your first meal is going to come from, you should count yourself as fortunate and use the time to be grateful and enjoy yourself rather than think about everything that’s not working out because trust me, there’s someone out there who is suffering way more than you are so it’s good to remember that.

 

Pooja- Very true, very true. It’s always about perspective? You look at yourself and you think you’re the worst person. Yeah. So, from what you’ve said so far, I take you to be kind of like a very inspiring person. May I say that? So, do you have any lessons from your life?

 

Krishna- I wouldn’t be as presumptuous or I wouldn’t use that. I think I make as many mistakes as anybody else and I don’t mean to be an inspiration to anybody or anything like that but I believe in one line which is, if you are going to spend time talking to me, if somebody is going to be with me, at the end of that experience, they need to walk away saying “Okay, I’m glad I did that. I feel better having talked to him and spent time with him”. If they’re going to walk away saying “Oh my God, now I feel even worse and I feel like now I am thinking about things and worrying about things which I wasn’t worrying about earlier”, then I’ve failed because you’re spending your time with me. You’re giving me your attention, your time. You’re investing in me so if that investment isn’t going to pay off for you, or if I’m not going to try and make that investment pay off for you then it’s a problem, the way I see it. So, I just try and make sure that anybody I’m with just has a good time there. If they can walk away feeling better about themselves or a situation, then I’m very happy about it.

 

Pooja- But a lot of people don’t admit that they make mistakes, right? Yeah, I understand it’s a learning curve but it takes a lot to own upto your mistakes and I can see that you’re doing that, so I’m very proud of you for that.

Krishna- It’s something that I think just frees you. Once you realise that you’ve made a mistake and admit to that and say sorry, say sorry to whoever that mistake has affected, including yourself, I think it frees you to see how you can move forward and make things better rather than try to cover it up or lie or hide or blame others. It just creates more problems. The laziest way to deal with something you’ve done wrong is to admit it, say sorry and move on and I’m a very lazy person so I just do that.

 

Pooja- Okay, that’s nice. As with any art form, writing is a way of expressing your feelings, right? And expressing your feelings is a very hard thing. How do you know that they are reciprocated?

 

Krishna- Exactly. I think even in a friendship or in a relationship or with your family, when something is not okay, the most difficult thing to do is sit down and tell the other person what you’re feeling. You know while you’re doing that, that the other person may have a completely different point of view or that they may have a different take on what you’re saying or you could be misunderstood. A hundred things could happen. I think creating a piece of art is doing that every single day, every single minute. You are trying to express yourself, which is a very very difficult thing to do. It’s because you need to understand things about yourself that you may not want to face, you have to sometimes say things that you’re embarrassed to say. You say those things and there’s no guarantee that those things are going to make the impact that you want. It’s just like that. Sitting down with your boyfriend or girlfriend at the end of a relationship which has not been going very well saying “Listen, this is what the problem is and this is what I think we should do to fix it”, it’s tough to do that, look the person in the eye and do that and knowing that the other person may just disagree with you. So, that’s what it’s like.

Pooja- Yes. Very true, very true. But talking about expressing your feelings, right? We’ve known that a lot of writers speak when they face mental illnesses, right? Like depression, anxiety, and like you said, it’s very hard to cope with. But on the other hand, writing can also help to maintain mental health. How do you think that dynamic works?

 

Krishna- Okay, let me give you a very simple analogy, I think it’s going to tie into my point about being as mentally strong as you can. There are two steps, I think- The first step, even more so than writers, the people who really face a lot of this problem where their creativity sort of gets out of hand are actors, comedians, you know. They really can lose sight of reality because of their craft and also because of the recognition that comes with it, and I think what you need to realise, first of all, is that you need to be in control of your craft, you can’t let your craft control you. So, this is something I do to make myself feel better and because it gives me joy. It’s not something I’m doing so that it can overwhelm me. 

 

So, I think having that distinction of making sure you’re the one in charge really really helps, and secondly- if things are going well, don’t get carried away by the praise. Like if someone tells you “Oh, you’re fantastic. You can do this, you can do that.. You were so amazing in this, you were so amazing in that.. This piece was amazing”, just nod your head, be gracious about it, politely smile but don’t let it get to you and don’t make yourself out to be anything more than you are, which is just a human being, with problems and failings and all of that. Similarly, when someone comes and tells you “Listen, this was absolute crap”, don’t take it to heart and say “I’m useless, I’m this, I’m that” and get overwhelmed and sad and all of that. Your art is not you. Keep it distant from you. In that distance, make sure that you are controlling it, and don’t let it overwhelm you. Those are the things I would definitely say would help make sure that you are getting the best out of your craft and not getting the worst out of it.

 

Pooja- So, what do you have to say to artists around the world who are struggling for inspiration?

 

Krishna- Understand what makes you excited. For example, I know that I see a lot of books, paintings, films, series, music- I hear a lot of music- and it’s very popular, it’s very acclaimed but just because it’s popular or acclaimed, I say “Okay, I’m going to do something like this”, it’s not going to work out. Rather, you can experience as much stuff as you can and say that “Okay, for some reason, this strikes a chord with me. There’s something about this that I relate very deeply to”. Sometimes, it could be something that’s not successful. It could be something that nobody knows about and some of the things that people actively dislike but you say there’s something about it that I can relate to, and from there your inspiration will come. 

 

When you find what is exciting you, you will find your inspiration because you will say “Okay, I understand a little bit more about who I am. This is making me understand who I am.” The more you understand about who you are, the more easily you will be able to create art that is unique to you and that you are excited about creating. As long as you are living the life of someone else or trying to be someone else, it’s going to be tough for you to try and come up with inspiration and create anything that truly resonates with who you are. When you realise who you are, and that comes from identifying the things you like, you are able to create a lot more content which is more original and which you are more interested in creating as well. 

 

Pooja- So, hats off to you! I understand why people loved ‘Notes of a Dream’. I have one last thing to ask you- if there is one word you would like to say to artists, artists all over the world, maybe writers, painters, sculptors, just one word- what would you say to them?

Krishna- Believe.

Pooja- Okay, any reason behind that?

 

Krishna- It’s because unless you’re going to believe in what you’re creating, it’s going to be hollow. I’ll give you an explanation about how it works for me. When I first started writing something, for a long time, I would just be like okay, I can’t show people this. I can’t show people this. It’s not yet ready. It’s not yet good enough. But suddenly comes a moment when that changes to “I can’t wait for people to see this”. I’m so excited to show people this. The moment that changes is when you start believing. 

When you start believing that your concept, your idea, your writing, your language, whatever you want to say, suddenly something happens that makes you believe that it is working for you and it resonates with who you are, that is when it is possible for you to take the next step. Trust me, there are a lot of times when I’ve said “Okay, it’s not ready, it’s not ready, I need more time” and I’ve never come to believe in it and I’ve never finished it. It didn’t happen because I’ve never fully believed in it. Of course, then again, I go back to it after some months or sometimes, after some years, and then I suddenly say “Okay, this is actually quite good” and I start believing in it and the story changes but until you believe in what you’re saying, don’t expect anybody else to believe in it. Also, until you can see something happening, again, how can the Universe or God make anything happen for you until you can see it clearly? And for you to see it clearly, you have to believe in it. 

Let’s move onto art. You see someone who you think is really attractive. You think they could be your boyfriend/girlfriend. Until you want them to be your boyfriend/girlfriend, until you believe that you are good enough to be with them, are you even going to start talking to them? Until you believe that the situation is possible, how can anything happen? You won’t even go and say “Hello”, you won’t even go and say “Listen, I feel this way about you” or if you’re applying for a job or you’re applying to a University, until you think you’re good enough, you’re not going to want to apply to it. 

I have been told this repeatedly in pitches, they have been like “Listen, we don’t know what you are seeing in your head right now..” I sold ‘Notes of a Dream ‘ on this. Before I had written a single word but I knew the concept, I believed in the concept, I went to them and said “Listen, this is what I want to do”. And they didn’t ask me for a sample or anything. They just said “Listen, you clearly believe in this concept. We can see that you’re passionate about it. Go ahead with it. We’ll support you”. So, I think until you can see yourself in a certain situation, the Universe cannot make it happen. So, when I say “believe,” all I’m saying is, see the situation that you’re dreaming of because dreams without belief cannot become reality. It’s dreams plus belief that equal reality. It’s very simple math. So, if you’re just going to believe in yourself without a dream, then nothing can happen. But again, if you have a dream without belief, it can’t happen either. So, it needs to be a balance of both.

 

Pooja- Wow, that was so nice. Thank you so much for your time, Krishna. It was such a pleasure to talk to you and I picked up a lot of lessons today, actually. I learnt about perspective, I learnt about how to believe in yourself, as we just discussed and I learnt about the struggles that one might face in life, not just about writing, not about just with an artist but general life, right? It was very enlightening for me. Thank you so much.

 

Krishna- Thank you, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you as well!

 

Pooja- All the best from LonePack for your journey forward and I’m sure it’s going to be a really

wonderful one. Especially your love for experimenting and your love for life, I can tell.

Krishna- Thank you.

The grief of losing someone often leaves a lasting impact on one’s life. Life changes in ways we could never anticipate. When it feels like the rest of the world has just kept going, we may find ourselves to be broken and struggle in our attempts to “move on” from the loss. So how do we pick up our broken pieces and find the strength to move forward?

 

---

Also follow us on:

SoundCloud

---

Valerie- Welcome to LonePack Conversations! I’m Valerie.

Today, we have with us Dr. Sangeeta Mahajan. A suicide loss survivor herself, Dr. Sangeeta is a mental health activist and educator. Through her work, she endeavours to engage with as many people as she can, to work together to prevent young suicide through raising awareness and reducing stigma.

Welcome, Dr. Sangeeta.

Dr. Sangeeta-  Thank you, Valerie.

Valerie- Before we start, I would like to issue a trigger warning as this podcast delves into suicide and the process of dealing with loss due to suicide. In case anything that we talk about triggers anybody, please feel free to stop listening, and do seek professional help in case you find yourself struggling to deal with mental health issues.

So Dr. Sangeeta, you’re a qualified trainer in youth mental health first aid and are passionate about shattering the stigma around mental health and suicide. Could you tell us what drove you to become an activist for mental health awareness and youth suicide prevention?

Dr. Sangeeta- Yes. Thank you very much, Valerie for doing this interview and thank you to LonePack for all the good work that it does. It’s really required in India and all over the world, actually that we raise the understanding of mental health illnesses. I came to it through a very personal tragedy. My beautiful son, Sagar, was only twenty and this was six years ago when he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Within ten days, he was gone. I had no idea, we lived in the same house. He had seen the doctor two days before that and I thought everything that could be done was being done for him but neither he nor the doctor, nobody said anything about suicide. 

I realised that it is such a taboo subject that even doctors don’t know how to talk about it, leave alone our society. You know, doctors are only people after all, right? And we are products of our society. If nobody is talking about it, then doctors are also not because they do not know how to, it’s not in the syllabus. Then I realised that it was down to people like me, who were directly affected by it, to talk about it because otherwise, it’s just going to be in silence forever and being bereaved by suicide is such a painful place to be and it is so hard to keep going back there and talking about it, but I don’t have anything else to do now. So, this is what I do and I hope that it will save lives and bring closeness between people and make this world a better place. 

 

Valerie- We are very sorry to hear about your loss and about Sagar but we’re also very thankful to you that you’ve taken that experience and you’ve decided that you want to change things and you want to bring about change. You help bereaved families but you also spread awareness so that something like this could be prevented in the future. That is a great initiative, you know? To come from darkness and to be able to want to spread light to the people around, to prevent a situation like this from happening else. 

So, when we talk about suicide, guilt is a major part of the grieving process, when it comes to friends and family. We have a lot of questions, a lot of ‘What Ifs’. What if we had paid more attention? What if we had noticed the signs? What if we could have saved them? because it’s difficult to fathom the circumstances that led up to it. In fact, as a suicide loss survivor myself, there were many instances where I often felt guilty about experiencing happiness after the loss – it felt wrong to me to feel happy anymore. Many others often struggle with suicidal thoughts themselves when the guilt gets overwhelming. Is this expected? How can we manage this overwhelming amount of guilt that we feel?

Dr. Sangeeta- Yes, I think it’s a very important question because losing someone to suicide does leave you with a mountain of guilt and you almost believe that it’s your fault that they died. I still believe, I have to tell myself that he was really ill, he was under the care of a doctor, you were not his doctor, you were just his mother. He was twenty years old and so it was up to him what he wanted to share and what he didn’t want to share, and these are very personal feelings, they’re very difficult to talk about because actually, we don’t know how to create space for these conversations. We don’t know how to be with someone’s angst and uncertainty and we’re not comfortable with this subject. And I think there is so much self blame associated with it, even with the individual who’s feeling suicidal. They may be ill, they may be on medication, they might be having very valid reasons for feeling suicidal but still, they blame themselves for feeling like that, which also stops them from talking about it. 

If somebody has diabetes or cancer, they don’t blame themselves, right? They just have it. Whereas with mental illnesses, there is a whole other dimension of “flawness”, that there’s something wrong with this person, almost something wrong with their character. Which is not true. But because that is how the society looks at it, that’s how they look at themselves, and that stops them from asking for help. So we have to break that shame and blame cycle and know that if they don’t tell you, you can’t know, right? We’re not mind readers. Our mind is constantly trying to find a reason, but there is no “one reason”. It’s a very complex issue, there are usually multiple reasons and they all come to a confluence at one point where the emotional pain that they suffer gets too much and if they can’t have a constructive, meaningful conversation or even be heard and understood at that point, especially in young people, it can be quite an impulsive decision, which is taken very quickly and in a very short time. So it’s a very time critical intervention that we need to make. Firstly, we need to increase our awareness and our ability to create spaces for these conversations, which is what you are doing today so good job, thank you.

 

Valerie- Thank you. But you know, we talked about guilt and obviously there are questions that we have and they have very complex answers, which is why it’s only natural for us to blame ourselves. But it takes you down such a downward spiral that you cannot get out of. One thing is telling yourself that you’re not at fault but it doesn’t really do much for you. So what would you say we can do to get out of this guilt that we make ourselves feel?

Dr. Sangeeta- So the first is to recognize it as guilt. To recognize that what I’m feeling is guilt. Very deep guilt. And then to know that yes, these are my thoughts but I don’t have to believe in them a hundred percent. Also to acknowledge that what you’re going through is possibly the most painful loss . Part of me still believes that it’s my fault that he’s no more. But I still have to be kind to myself, you know? I have to acknowledge that okay, it has happened. I didn’t do it, right? I am sure I could have done more, it’s true I could have done more but I cannot go back. What I can do is recognize it as a thought, let it not become a belief, and hold myself with kindness and know that if I could, he would live for a million years. If I could. If my love would be enough, he’d live for a million years. But I can’t reverse that. All I can do is honour his memory, keep loving him, keep doing some good work in his name and keep being kind to myself because I am also suffering and I have been through a lot. Acknowledge that. 

Valerie- I liked that you said that we have to validate our own feelings there. You say we should admit that it’s guilt but also find a space for yourself where you are kind to yourself and you don’t bog yourself down by that immense amount of guilt that you’re feeling.

Dr. Sangeeta- And sometimes, you just need to sit with it, you know? I think for me, meditation has really helped because I can just breathe through it. Just sit and breathe through it. Whatever it is, it shifts. It moves sideways a little bit, it gets less intense. And you know, we need to hold our poor little broken hearts like a little baby, you know? With gentleness, and just literally pat it lovingly and say “You’ve been through a lot”. Be our own best friends.

 

Valerie- So, when we talk about the processes of grieving, everyone has a different grieving process. A different method that helps them cope with the loss in the best way that they can. There are very different kinds of people. I was somebody who often found comfort in the pain, at a point. And I decided not to move on from the incident, you take it as a way of honoring the memory of the person. There are also people who decide to focus on what lies ahead and outwardly, they may seem to move on from the loss much faster. 

In addition to all of this, you have the aftermath of a loss due to suicide. You have survivors who are unable to openly share their grief because as you said, there is a lot of stigma, a lot of shame and judgement surrounding the topic, to a point where even doctors do not have conversations about it. Does the grieving process differ for suicide loss survivors? How can they be supported through their grieving process? 

Dr. Sangeeta- Yes, so I think everybody grieves completely differently, like you said. Even in the same family, if the father and the mother have lost the same child, they have lost a different relationship. He might have lost his cricket buddy and he might have lost her future grandchildren, you know? So, it’s very different for each one and it’s all okay. Just do whatever you need to do, is what I would say. There’s no right or wrong when it comes to this. Just do whatever feeds your soul, whatever sustains you. There is no formula, there is no recipe. I would say spend time with people who cherished that person, who are not afraid to talk about him. Share their memories lovingly. When something like this happens, you really find out who your friends are and it’s really useful because then you don’t waste your time. You stick with people who understand your loss and who are not about gossiping and judging and making life more difficult for you. 

There are many many ways in which people can support somebody who has lost someone to suicide. By reaching out, not being afraid to name the person, celebrate them, talk about them in a way like they were a cherished part of our lives. Not get into why and how and why not. Nobody knows why. They probably did not know why. We don’t know. There’s no point going in “Why”s or “How”. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that this beautiful person has gone. So, we need to create space to listen to them. They might want to repeat the same story over and over and over again, which is okay. Create space for that, listen patiently. Let them lead the conversation. Don’t ask too many questions. Don’t make platitudes like “Be strong”, “He’s in a better place” and all that is rubbish, really. It doesn’t help. 

I think there is no right or wrong, I would say. Just do whatever makes sense to you and don’t criticize the other person’s way of dealing with it because they are doing what works for them. But I think it does put a huge strain on relationships, on families. It completely shifts family dynamics, and that’s normal as well. There is no such thing as a perfect human being or a perfect relationship so I think if we have basic compassion for ourselves, then we can have compassion for other people. It’s very easy to get into the blame game with this- “you said” “she said”, you know? But actually, I think this is really a time to be kind to all those who are left behind because they are all suffering. 

 

Valerie- So, in addition to what we spoke about, about there being stigma and shame surrounding it and that being a reason to not talk about the person you lost, there is also this whole thing of, of course, it is a very personal loss for you but you also feel like you are the only one going through this and so nobody is going to understand what you’re talking about and nobody is going to get it at the same level of sensitivity that you have for that person. I rethink that also makes it very difficult conversation and I think it’s good that you are here with us, sitting and talking about your experience and we can discuss because there are a lot of people here who think they are alone in their suffering, who do not find it comfortable to talk to somebody who hasn’t lost a person because you feel like they’re not going to get what you’re saying. So I think that is another reason why people do often not talk about it and suffer in silence but I think it’s great that you’re coming out and the fact that you share your story with so many people is going to be very encouraging. 

Dr. Sangeeta- I find that it’s true that we don’t feel understood. It’s true. Imean, how can anybody else understand what it’s like unless you’ve been through it? I don’t blame other people for not understanding. I don’t expect them to understand and I hope they never have to understand what it feels like. But I would say that it’s very important for people who have had similar experiences to get together because there is an organization called SOBS here (in the UK), which is Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide, where people meet. 

All the people who are there have lost some family member or friend to suicide and in that room, there is so much understanding because everybody has come with a similar experience, it’s peer support. There are no experts in that room, no therapists, nothing. But people find so much comfort there and I think that can only happen if people come forward and put their hand out to other people who have had similar experiences, get together. Now it’s possible to do it across towns and countries even. And I think, have a peer support group where people can come and be with other people who have had similar experiences. It’s really been helpful for me and many others. And of course, I also have a therapist and I’m very grateful that I can afford one. I’ve been seeing her every week for two years now and that’s a very healthy thing to have because it gives you an insight into yourself.

Valerie- I also liked that when we talked about how people can be supportive, you said do not ask too many questions, do not jump to conclusions, just bethere, be compassionate and listen. And I think that is extremely important when somebody is opening up to you and when they’re trying to share their grief with you.

Dr. Sangeeta- Yeah.

 

Valerie-  When we lose someone to suicide, like we talked about, there are a lot of unresolved questions and we are just left trying to make sense of it. It’s a common emotion for people to feel anger and unforgiveness towards the person we lost, for leaving us. But these emotions can come in the way of our path to healing. How would you say we should deal with these emotions? How do we pick up our broken pieces and find meaning after loss? How do we give ourselves the strength to move forward? 

Dr. Sangeeta- Yes, I think it’s very complex- grief- because of the undertones of severe judgement. Often, it’s not a voluntary act. It is a measure of someone’s emotional pain, that they are in so much pain that they cannot bear to stay on the planet. How much pain do you have to be in to do that? Because we, as human beings, are not designed to do that. We are designed to protect ourselves- we can’t touch hot things and immediately withdraw, we cannot tolerate the smallest cut on our hand. We are designed to defend ourselves if we go and do something like that. Imagine how difficult it must be for them to entertain the idea of staying alive? It’s beyond our comprehension if we haven’t felt that way. So, I feel great compassion for Sagar that he had so much pain, poor chap, you know? And he walked around hiding it because he thought nobody would understand. How terrible, isn’t it? for any to have that much pain. 

I grieve not just for his death, I grieve for his suffering. So, there is no place for anger. I think if we can have compassion for their suffering. There is no place for anger where there is compassion. I can only talk from my experience and so, there is no scope for judgement. If we drop all judgements, there is no right or wrong, it’s a death. That’s all it is. It is a death. All these undertones of judgement is what makes it unbearable. “How could he do this to me?” He didn’t do it to you. It was his life. He couldn’t bear it. So, it’s not about me now. It’s not about me. It’s about him, it’s about what he could not say that he should have been able to say. That as a society, we should have created space for. That his doctors should have known how to talk about. It’s about that. There is no right or wrong in this, you just have to face it for what it is and asee how we can help people who are in that position. So, yeah. What was your question? Sorry, I got a bit carried away there.

Valerie- Yeah, so I was asking how we should deal with these emotions because it’s only natural when you’re left with no answers, you do not know what is going on. You can feel unforgiveness and as you said, you have to look at it with compassion, you know? Replace that emotion with compassion because obviously, the person went through a lot of pain before they took the step that they did. My question is, how do we pick ourselves up after an experience like this? How do we find meaning after the loss and how do we give ourselves the strength to push forward and move on in life?

Dr. Sangeeta- Well, like I said earlier, there are no general answers. It has a lot to do with who you are and what you do. So, when Sagar passed, I started writing a blog on the day he passed, because I had to do something. I couldn’t just sit there and let this day come and go unmarked. It was the most shocking and painful day of my life, and his life, probably. I was struck by how many people don’t know this can happen to them or their loved ones. I started writing a blog and also, it was my way of really immortalizing him. I could not allow him to just go without anything, you know? The world has to change. It was my ego as well, that it was my son. My beautiful, darling son and how can this happen? It was a mixture of anger and everything, and I just put it into my writing. I wrote every day for a thousand days. That was my way. The blog is called ‘Kids are Gifts’. I still write it. Once every ten or twelve days, I write something on it. It was my way of spending time with Sagar, it was my way of venting my anger. It was where I wrote down all the things that I learnt along the way, where I wrote down how I felt. It was a friend, it was a bride that I hung my days on, you could write at the end of the day. It was my reward, it was my punishment, it was everything. I put my energy into my blog initially, just because it gave me something to do. 

It’ll be different things for different people. Slowly, I found that cycling really helped. It’s really meditative. The wheels go round and round and you could just empty your mind and just the repetitiveness of it and you can feel your breathing and your heart and you could just be in your body for a little while. Cycling helped, writing helped, then I found nature helped. I joined flower arranging lessons and I learnt to do Ikebana, which is a Japanese art of flower arranging- it’s very technical, it’s very minimalistic, beautiful floral art.  Then I started doing some mental health work, and when I was a little bit better, then my phone number was given to other people whose children were either ill or they’d lost somebody and I would spend lots of time on the phone with them. So, I think if you start using that love, guilt is only love basically, turned upside down. If you tell yourself “What I’m feeling is love” and I need to channel it into something and find whatever that something is for you. I think by using your hands and your body into something, doing something. 

Also, take it as learning. Let death be your lesson, let cause be your teacher. The guilt also was about things that I had done. I used to work really long hours and I always thought that when I came home, he’ll be there. I took him for granted. And one day he wasn’t. I really stopped and thought “What else am I taking for granted?”.  I’m taking my health for granted, I’m taking my parents for granted, I’m taking my husband for granted, I’m taking my cat for granted! So, it made me think about what I can do differently. How can I live differently now? This is almost like a second life for me. I’ve been given a second chance to live better. I can turn that guilt around and learn from it. This is what I didn’t do right. I didn’t know how to have those conversations. Now I know how to have those conversations. So, do whatever you can with it but take this as an opportunity to learn and to grow and to expand.

Valerie- Yeah, I think what you said is very important. Obviously, you’re suffering a lot, you’ve gone through a lot, you still are going through a lot. But you take that as an experience and you learn from it. You learn how to be more sensitive to the people around you, you learn how not to take things for granted, and you also try doing something about it. You take that one experience you had and if you can help people around you, then there can be nothing better. You can’t replace what you’ve lost but you can certainly try to help make this place better.

Dr. Sangeeta- And you know why I can do that? Because there’s not a bone in my body that is ashamed of anything. I am so proud of Sagar. I am so proud of him. I loved him before he was born and I will love him forever. He was an absolute star! I’m not ashamed of him at all. I know he tried his best. I know he tried his best.

Valerie- I think it’s important for everyone who has suffered a loss like this to understand that and not look at them any differently than they did before they passed away.

Dr. Sangeeta- Yeah. Like people fight with cancer, they say “battle with cancer”. This is also a battle but it’s invisible. We all have to develop eyes to see it. 

 

Valerie- On this World Suicide Prevention Day, what are some things that have happened over the past year or so that give you hope that things might be changing? Just like you said, we have to develop the eyes to see it, we need to create spaces for conversations like this. And what do you hope to see in the coming years? 

Dr. Sangeeta- I see hope in you! I think over the last few years, the conversation has grown. I know that through this COVID time as well, people have been thinking about each other’s mental well being. So I think overall, there is more openness. I know some celebrities in India like Deepika Padukone and all those people have come forward with their struggles. I was very very saddened to hear about the suicide of the young Bollywood actor, very very sad. The way the media and everybody has dealt with it has been so bad. Everything that should not be done had been done. It really saddened me to see that but I think the conversation has grown, definitely. 

For the future, my hope is that it will continue to grow and that all the judgements that are attached with mental illness and suicide will be taken away and people will treat mental illness just like a physical illness and not treat it as a character flaw because there is true suffering in that and I have seen it. So I do hope that people will understand that these are very complex issues, that the brain is a very delicate organ, that the adolescent years are very complex years. From the age of ten to twenty-five is adolescence and yet, medicine is split into pediatrics and adult medicine. There is no such thing as adult medicine. Those years need a lot of attention. Schools and colleges, parents, everybody needs to educate themselves about the delicacy of those years and how the brain works. 

I’m hoping that your work and mine, last year, I was at a conference in India and we did a mental health workshop for seventy medical students, and they’ve all gone back to their respective medical schools from all over India and some of the foreign countries as well, from Asia and they’ve all gone back to their medical schools with more awareness and they;’re more connected with their communities. They’re watching out for warning signs, they’re growing these conversations, so yeah. There is hope. Just keep doing what we do.

 

Valerie- Thank you so much for talking to me today. I’m sure this has been a conversation that will help a lot of people because you have shared an experience. You’ve not just talked about the dos and don’ts of how to deal with grief but you shared an experience with us. It’s been very emotional for me to talk to you about this but I wanna thank you for agreeing to do this podcast with me and I hope that we can tell people to be more sensitive, to look out for warning signs, and to spread awareness about something like this. To keep conversations open. To know how to have conversations more importantly. I hope that we’ll be able to make a difference.

Dr. Sangeeta- Actually, we forget that one half of having a conversation is listening. At least one half. So I think we need to develop our listening skills more. That’s when we can find out a lot about the other person and have them feel understood.

Valerie- And I hope for everyone who has suffered a loss, that we learn how to pick ourselves up and we learn how to take that experience and change that into something positive for the people around us and for ourselves. 

Dr. Sangeeta- And I would just say to anyone who is in a similar situation to me, know that you’re not alone. There are many other people. I think, if you were to start connecting with other people who are in your position, I think that might be a very rewarding thing to do.

Valerie- Thank you so much, Dr. Sangeeta.

Dr. Sangeeta- Thank you very much, Valerie. I wish you luck in everything you do.

Valerie- Thank you. 

To read Dr. Sangeeta’s blog posts, visit: www.kidsaregifts.org